Torp remote det

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Torp remote det

Post by ZigZagJoe on Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:31 pm

Got me a bit of a furball started at http://moonbreakers.userecho.com/topic/115290-remote-detonating-torps/

The dev's response is not encouraging, though.

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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Grey Man on Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:04 pm

What do you find about WJ's post that is not encouraging? I agree that torpedoes are really only a problem if you aren't paying attention to them and the addition of a warning like with missiles should help with that. Nukes would become a great way to break up a furball without actually killing anyone as everyone ran for cover. In fact, if they made the warning universal no one would know wether it was friend or foe so everyone would run.

I also like that he considered the physics effects even though they would be hard to implement...

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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Viking Jack on Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:00 pm

they are really annoying in S&D for 3 reason

1) they catch you off guard sometimes and you end losing a kill streak AKA bounty

2) its really frustrating when they blow a bunch of your teamates they can be a decicive factor in a S&D a mode that is supposedly made to encourage fighter duels and thats lead me to 3

3) im a bit tired of seeing more and more ppl using bombers in S&D they are boring to dogfight since they dont move too much they only go in straight line and try to escape boosting also it takes a lot of shots to blow one

i think a good solution for this would be to make the bombers worth more kill points every time you blow 1 your team scores 2 or 3 points instead of 1

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Re: Torp remote det

Post by jazzycat on Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:24 am

Don't forget that the 1-2 stripe players using the bombers only have 1-2 ships to choose from when they start - the Mamba or the Rhino. If they could pick a Medium or a Heavy fighter, they would - and it's noticeable whenever there's a free-to-fly/try ship and the un-upgraded population numbers of certain models goes up for a week (remember the Pirahna spam?).

New players want to play the game. They've already made that decision by downloading and logging in. But after 3 min of gameplay they might find they just crumple into asteroids in the Mambas and get 1-shot lazered by the Kraits and Nighthawks. They'll survive longer in the Rhino and as others here have said, it takes no skill to fly a short distance from your carrier and fire/arm/detonate and get the reward of seeing your name "obliterating" and blasting others "outta the sky".

So when a free-to-fly option for a week consists of a light-craft and a bomber... of COURSE you're going to see more nuke-spam, due to there being more light-fighters in the air and/or more nuke-firing bombers in the air.

One suggestion I can think of to reduce/prevent the increase in nuke-spam we've seen recently is to be conscious of the ship-classes that are picked for free-to-fly; never light/bomber combinations - because the first ships players get are already a light/bomber. So, a combination of light/med/heavy or med/heavy/bomber.

As for new pilots going the way of the nuke-spam tactic after less than an hour of gameplay? In my experience, if someone chooses the easy way out and are focusing on *must earn more credits/kills/epeen NOW* rather than enjoying the game itself, and learning how to fly, and having fun from giving as good as you get, then they probably won't be sticking around for long or buying any He-3 or Steam bundles in the first place.

Look to retain the pilots who want to fly regardless of fancy ships and boost and credits - their enthusiasm and growing skill make the servers a better experience. Look to retain the ones who would purchase if they could - by word of mouth they might have friends who'll play, or parents who'll say "Happy Birthday, have an X-99!". Look to retain the ones who WANT to enjoy the game, with its easy pick-up/put-down and relatively quick-games for those moments between classes, or when you have 10min before bed-time, or before the kids get home/wake up, or before heading off to work - they'll want to play Moon Breakers whenever they can, with varying levels of investment.

At the end of the day, we all want to play...

Just that some have no choice but to pick the best ship they have available. Some may have egos that won't let them fly a tiny mamba vs the hefty bombers. And some are just douche-bags regardless of what they play.

More kills for my cannons, I say -- if you nuke spam, you're gonna be a kill-mark on my fighter.

/salute
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Re: Torp remote det

Post by jazzycat on Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:26 am

Grey Man wrote:Nukes would become a great way to break up a furball without actually killing anyone as everyone ran for cover. In fact, if they made the warning universal no one would know wether it was friend or foe so everyone would run.
I also like that he considered the physics effects even though they would be hard to implement...

Those are good points Grey Man, I agree! Very Happy
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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Grey Man on Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:54 am

jazzycat wrote:

New players want to play the game. They've already made that decision by downloading and logging in. But after 3 min of gameplay they might find they just crumple into asteroids in the Mambas and get 1-shot lazered by the Kraits and Nighthawks.

/salute

Shoot, now I feel responsible. Should I go easy on the lazors?

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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Loki on Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:26 am

Grey Man wrote:
jazzycat wrote:

New players want to play the game. They've already made that decision by downloading and logging in. But after 3 min of gameplay they might find they just crumple into asteroids in the Mambas and get 1-shot lazered by the Kraits and Nighthawks.

/salute

Shoot, now I feel responsible. Should I go easy on the lazors?

The solution always involves moar lazors! ...I just picked up a Krait yesterday...

Also, Jazzy makes some really good points a couple posts up. I once asked what was with all the bombers and a new person (rank 1) replied saying it 'counters the heavy fighter'. I recall a few of us requesting that the FH-90 become unlocked once you hit a certain level (rank now). This would probably encourage a lot of players to stick around longer.
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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Grey Man on Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:32 am

Enjoy the Krait Loki! I disagree with that new player who called the bombers a counter to the heavies. The counter to heavy fighters is light fighters! Yes bombers can go head to head with a HF and come out on top, but if they come at you from any other direction you're toast!

I like the idea of unlock by level. At least then I would have one heavy fighter to fly...

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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Loki on Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:59 am

The trouble is that they don't realize head to head is a mistake, but it's all they know...
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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Ferc Polo on Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:24 pm

If one doesn't realize head to head is a mistake unless done on one's own terms than one probably wouldn't hit top tier in this game anyhow.
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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Agent of Change on Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:49 pm

Ferc Polo wrote:If one doesn't realize head to head is a mistake unless done on one's own terms than one probably wouldn't hit top tier in this game anyhow.

That is the kind of thing that only comes with experience though. Either through previous games or trail and error here. We can talk about tactics and give advice all day but until those lessons sink in we are going to have frustrated players... problem is there is nothign for it, those that learn and adapt will thrive.
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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Viking Jack on Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:52 pm

i think the real problem aren't the new players nuke spam, i have seen bomber aces whose playstyle is shoting nukes from behind the frontline like when you use beam cannons but those players are capable of killing an entire team wich frustrates the noobs flying in light fighters then they choose to fly a bomber and see if they can get all those kills and last more before blowing up but you can se the big diference between new bomber pilots and bombers aces the new ones will try to charge you and shoot the torpedo at your face wich makes it really easy to shot down,
but the bomber ace will hide and shoot their torpedos out of your sight, like behind an asteroid, that way if you dont pay atention you will have a nasty surprise if they have to charge they first shoot the torpedo then boost in front of it and act as a shield for it, that way when you try to dogfight them you will again get a nasty surprise
i do believe bomber aces are far more frustrating to new players than fighter aces bomber are slow and good for target practice but it isn't funny when all your hopes of shooting down a ship slower and bigger than you gets evaporated by a white flash of nuclear fire

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Re: Torp remote det

Post by jazzycat on Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:38 am

Agent of Change wrote:
Ferc Polo wrote:If one doesn't realize head to head is a mistake unless done on one's own terms than one probably wouldn't hit top tier in this game anyhow.
That is the kind of thing that only comes with experience though. Either through previous games or trial and error here. We can talk about tactics and give advice all day but until those lessons sink in we are going to have frustrated players... problem is there is nothing for it, those that learn and adapt will thrive.
This. So, so this. I see new names in the 1-2 stripe ranks all the time but not many 3-stripes (unless progression from 3 stripes to 4 at L50 is relatively quick). There are some very basic rules to surviving and dominating which we don't even think about anymore. Some of them are bloody obvious to us but might not be for others going off only what they know from Hollywood or having never played WC/X-Wing or similar (eg. like not going head to head, "jinking" and not flying in a straight line or leading the target's flight-path with gun-fire).

As for bomber-aces, while those are a definite threat on the map, again, it's also a situational awareness situation which will hopefully be assisted by the proximity alarm/warning the Devs'll implement. I'll admit that a well-placed stealth bomb (no pulling my finger jokes!) will decimate a furball dog-fight and be difficult to avoid in that situation but again that's one of the things the Devs have specifically mentioned as a function of nukes - to break up the tussle.

So if a bomber-ace is going the way of nuke-spam for S&D, as far as game-play goes, they're a threat to the objective right? So, logic follows that they should be killed asap; tell the new players - bomber so-and-so, kill 'em! Yellow-target = nuke, shoot it or GTFO (600m?). Kinda like what Prophet Saint's been doing lately, telling all and sundry to go for Complex Lain if they see him on the kill-board... Rolling Eyes
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Re: Torp remote det

Post by longshot on Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:57 am

True bomber aces are highly likely to be flying Panthers, which are by no stretch of the imagination "slow", and in the hands of an ace they're extremely elusive as well. Its one thing to say "let's all kill Complex Lain", another to actually do it & even if you can, the rest of his team is free to do what they want. Its the same situation as trying to kill a fighter ace with a 1000 cred bounty on his head. If he sticks in a group of friendly fighters, they're all free to shoot the sitting-duck targets that come zooming in chasing the bounty.
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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Loki on Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:57 am

jazzycat wrote:So if a bomber-ace is going the way of nuke-spam for S&D, as far as game-play goes, they're a threat to the objective right? So, logic follows that they should be killed asap; tell the new players - bomber so-and-so, kill 'em! Yellow-target = nuke, shoot it or GTFO (600m?).

There's an old party rule that came out of tabletop RPGs a long time ago and this reminded me of it. We used to say "Kill the wizard first". Anything with AoE was labelled a wizard.

...500m radius.
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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Xron on Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:29 am

I think the torps should have a bigger hit box. I often die when I try to shoot one down to save my team and BAM.

I think nukes should be feared in all game modes but on the other hand they can't be a confirmed kill, being able to easily shoot down a nuke would allow you to rip out the bombers teeth easily and would make carrier assault a better team game. (it's too easy to shoot torps past turrets.
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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Grey Man on Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:57 am

Loki wrote:

There's an old party rule that came out of tabletop RPGs a long time ago and this reminded me of it. We used to say "Kill the wizard first". Anything with AoE was labelled a wizard.

...500m radius.

This reminded me of another rule I have a hard time following but also applies to MB: Don't split the party.

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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Loki on Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:07 am

Grey Man wrote:
Loki wrote:

There's an old party rule that came out of tabletop RPGs a long time ago and this reminded me of it. We used to say "Kill the wizard first". Anything with AoE was labelled a wizard.

...500m radius.

This reminded me of another rule I have a hard time following but also applies to MB: Don't split the party.

Agreed. But spread out a bit when the fireballs start flying lol
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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Loki on Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:10 am

Xron wrote:(it's too easy to shoot torps past turrets.

It's only easy if you know how, but that applies to so much else in this game. Once you know the secrets, the game becomes much easier to score creds in. I had a match yesterday where the defenders appeared to know the torpedo tricks and shot down most of mine. It was only when I outran or tricked them into going the wrong direction did I managed to sink a few in, and most of the damage was done by others while I was distracting the defenders.
I saw a new player today (and myself in the past) try again and again to get a torp into the carrier. He got frustrated and was asking how to do it it in the lobby. I directed him here.
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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Grey Man on Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:16 am

HAHA! This metaphor keeps getting better and better!

Coming soon - Moon Breakers: Pen and Paper edition.

"I attack Loki with mah Lazor. My THAC0's a 1."

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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Loki on Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:32 pm

Grey Man wrote:"I attack Loki with mah Lazor. My THAC0's a 1."

Loki's AC is -10 according to N64 Goldeneye...also Most Frantic.
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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Gamut on Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:51 am

Search and Destroy does create a bit of a problem for new players - back when Moon Breakers had first come to Steam, I remember just how much fun it was to see two whole sides of Mambas being flown against each other - the gameplay was fast-paced and frantic; no one flew bombers due to the fact that the Rhino just couldn't do much versus the hordes of fighters without their remote nuke detonation. Now, as Moon Breakers has grown, we're seeing many more prestige ships, heavy fighters, and bombers in a given S&D match. Take a look at the scoreboards the next time you play and you'll see how rare the light ships have become - I can only assume that this is due to how long it takes to slog through a bomber's armor with just a little bit of machine gun fire and also how much more aware of your surroundings a light fighter needs to be. Seriously, how often do you see a Light / Medium chassis flown OTHER than the V-66 (Medium in Light's chassis) or X99 Merlin (which is really just a Heavy in Medium's chassis)? When half of the enemy team are composed of bombers, it takes FOREVER to try to cut them down, but then you reach the paradox where they're infinitely more dangerous to leave alone and keep working on zone denial with their nukes.

Now, jump into the shoes of a new player - what are they left taking into battle if not a Mamba? A Rhino - they'll survive the stray gunfire and probably make it back to friendly territory before exploding. What are the beginner's options for racking up cred in Search & Destroy? Lob a few nukes into a skirmish, maybe give a brief strafing run, and retreat.

Sadly, for people to stick around for Moon Breakers, they'll probably need a token Heavy Fighter just so they can feel like they're actually playing the game, as opposed to cherry picking and relying on dumb luck. Part of me wonders if Imba could examine having a chassis-lockout mode, limiting craft that can be flown. Realistically, they'd probably need to create custom-game-style settings wherein a host could actually set that, but I know I'd certainly get a kick out of flying a pure-Light Search and Destroy mission every once in a while.

Alternatively, a new Artillery-support style ship could be introduced: bombers could lose their remote detonation abilities in exchange for increased blast radius or damage, perhaps, while the new Artillery ships can be lower-armored and require protection to keep bombarding the enemy team. Just a random thought that entered my mind, really.

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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Loki on Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:15 am

WJ and Ed from IMBA have both said that they're working on separating the new from the experienced. We'll have a tiered system for players as well as ships soon.
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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Nostromo on Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:24 am

You know, with the introduction of the destroyer and those neat solo turrets, they could start having the platforms be stronger and more accurate against heavier ships. Using the explanation that the bigger the ship, the easier it is to track with turret systems.


just a thought that can be improved or changed in any way that works for the game.
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Re: Torp remote det

Post by Kackling Kobold on Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:47 am

heres how to fix it: upgrade the Mamba to medium fighter status and give it the shielding that new players need and DESERVE.

Disable bombers entirely for search and destroy.

DONE. no more nuke spam
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Re: Torp remote det

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