CTF and Bombers

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CTF and Bombers

Post by the-anger on Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:28 pm

Curious how people feel about this tactic.
Also, any tips/tricks on how to use (and counter) this tactic are needed.

Personally I hate it from a defenders point of view - short of devoting a 4+ man blockade (with 3 defenders it's possible to run in and out in most ships and not be noticed, timing required though) and having 2 sidewinders / kingfishers somewhere in between, you won't stop or be able to chase down a t-wolf with your flag. other ships could take it down yes, but that means the pilot got slack or ran out of boost, something im not seeing much of amongst t-wolf ctf players. other bombers aren't as hard to chase down, but take notably longer to take out.

From the other side of things, I encourage more people to use bombers for CTF. cheap doesn't factor into it - bombers have the HP, boost and speed to run in and out of a carrier. sometimes it is THE only way to get the flag away from the enemy carrier....

Discuss....
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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by Loki on Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:07 am

I'm not thrilled about it; back when CTF was introduced (pre-Steam release), I experimented with the T-wolf and found it far too easy to continue using it.
People used to complain about Viper runs in CTF, but that's nothing compared to a Timberwolf.

In short, flying a Timberwolf in CTF is too easy; you've got far too much HP and speed to be properly challenged by anyone but a top ace flying a murder machine.
I like something more interesting. I've made CTF runs in a Stingray and that was genuinely trying.
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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by longshot on Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:35 am

lol indeed Smile

Stingray stops the bombers though...
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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by DrunkenMonkey on Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:48 am

Once a bomber gets behind the first rock, how does a Stingray get close enough to really hurt it, though? I can see doing the damage while it's incoming. But the best use of bomber flag carriers, to me, is on the final leg of the trip after the first one or two carriers are down. They can absorb so much punishment, and only the fastest ships will probably be there to stop the last third of the trip.

Edit:
Even though as a general rule I despise bombers, I like having one or two around for ctf offense occasionally. Sometimes the missile count is simply too high for anything else to grab the flag, especially on Broken Moon. Since missiles are generally "easier," this can result in massive missile escalation, which forces the need for greater hit points. Lighter ships may still make it to the flag, but the boost used to avoid shots is likely drained.

When I'm chasing down flag carriers, in a G-5 or F-3X, bomber flag carriers generally don't do well...unless they picked it up past the mid-way point. Then it becomes a nightmare if they have any cover. If I have to dodge anything at the same time the flag carrier is, they're probably getting away. That applies to any flag carrier, but much more so for a bomber, since many more shots have to land.

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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by Complex lain on Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:55 am

With a Stingray surely you need to be halfway vicinity as the flag carrier can pass you and you have had it in the endurance trials LOL

I hate bombers in S&D 1st target on my scope, then A80 and then good players.

As for bombers in CTF - If players are allowed to use lasers then bombers are the only option.

Take our play the other night. The Anger sat there at the carrier in a Laser boat and stopped the game completely. I could not get near and if I did there was no escape as there was no support/distraction from other team members I ashamedly remember only scoring 1 run.

As for CTF I usually pick something to fly that the majority have as per all F3 then F3 it is. If a g5 appears then depending on how other players I go G5 or F3x if no one else does
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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by longshot on Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:32 am

DrunkenMonkey wrote:Once a bomber gets behind the first rock, how does a Stingray get close enough to really hurt it, though? I can see doing the damage while it's incoming. But the best use of bomber flag carriers, to me, is on the final leg of the trip after the first one or two carriers are down. They can absorb so much punishment, and only the fastest ships will probably be there to stop the last third of the trip.

Yes, if a bomber comes in for the last half of the trip then they're very difficult to stop unless you're right with the flag and see them coming - in which case a Stingray could put some serious holes in them.

I meant more as a forward screen defence for bombers, tearing chunks out of them on the way in to pickup the flag from the carrier so other defenders can finish them off, as well as being able to direct missiles into lights/mediums running with the flag as they try to escape the carrier towards you. If neither of the above are happening, you can take on enemies chasing your own flag bearer to help get it home, or just randomly attack passers-by Smile
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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by the-anger on Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:07 am

Complex lain wrote:As for bombers in CTF - If players are allowed to use lasers then bombers are the only option.

Take our play the other night. The Anger sat there at the carrier in a Laser boat and stopped the game completely. I could not get near and if I did there was no escape as there was no support/distraction from other team members I ashamedly remember only scoring 1 run.

agreed - lasers in the right hands are quite nasty, and is definitely one of those times you ought to whip out a bomber. although, 3 nighthawks with good aim pretty much make short work of any bomber, only thing is ive yet to see more than 2 at a time with aim that good. at which point you have little choice other than to put pressure on the laser boats to distract them from the flag runner...

but to be fair, your biggest problem that game was the lack of support. if even one person came with you every time you went for the flag, it would have turned out quite different... likewise on my team with defending, otherwise i would have gone flag running too...
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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by Kackling Kobold on Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:35 pm

bombers in CTF are tough, but flag packs on broadsides are *almost* unstoppable, regardless of composition.

There have been a couple of occasions that, by sheer luck, I've turned an asteroid to come up on the very tail of a flag pack I didn't even know was there, & just happened to be on my game enough to take out three or four pilots before they seemed to even know I was there.

This is why I check rearview often enough to occasionally die face first into an asteroid. It's a tricky balance.
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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by Nostromo on Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:02 pm

I've only ever had one instance where Beamer Boats ever were a complication, and it has been forever since I've seen that ace and his Nighthawk. In my most humble opinion, the fact that bombers are under powered in the first place makes complaining about them to be a silly notion Suspect . Beyond the B-10T and B-10X due to their speed, there is no saving grace amongst bombers that only lead to free kills and pissy pilots whining about the nuke spam. There is no use in talking about anything other than the use of the 10T and 10X, sure there might be one or two exception to this, but, we're talking about standard use amongst the majority of the players out there. Not, "that one ace that made the H4B into his personal steed of murder." Evil or Very Mad

Use of bombers, again I refuse to think of anything other than the 10T and 10X models Mad , is to crack hard targets. If the defense around the carrier is that hot then you do what has to be done. Now the use of torps in CTF is a laughable option, for most it is a desperate and useless plea for salvation that is only answered when the pursuit is too busy staring at your ass instead of being aware of their surroundings. Torps are slower than most boosting craft, big and yellow, and most of all killed out right with even the most random of obstacles. No one, expect MAYBE the most ignorant Embarassed , should miss the chance to poke the torp down with a casual sweep of there guns or a well timed rocket remo-det. Mad

Now missiles... there are a lot of them out there nowadays due to the low influx of fresh meat running around. It has been a long time since I have been so irritated about one little game function than the sheer number of missiles have enured in me. The fact that these, "toys," are such a mainstay in the combat and equipped to so many craft makes me choke at the absence of chaff or countermeasures in any, if not all ships. confused

There will be more, but, the responses will be reactive at best, because I am running on two hours of sleep for the last three days. I am having a great deal of trouble ordering my thoughts for a stronger statement beyond what I have already written... Crying or Very sad
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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by DrunkenMonkey on Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:31 pm

I think, as a general rule, bomber complaints are understood to be B10X and B10T.

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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by Kackling Kobold on Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:30 am

when I very first started playing I saw bomber tricks that still make my head spin.. In CTF no less. This was after they could remote det, but before their blast radius was reduced.

Primarily, I remember watching Cycloptic hide behind his carrier and fire the torp in such a way that it could not be seen by aproaching pilots (they have since fixed that too) only to destroy three or four would be flag runners just as one of them nabbed the flag.

There may not be some balance issues with bombers in CTF, I personally don't have that much issue... if it is a problem, it simply pales in comparison to the issue of bombers in S&D.

The type of foul play that pisses me off can be done in a rhino as easily as a panther; it's all about the enablers. Your statement of "so they have defenders, so do something about it" is completely ignorant of your own complaint; that there are more and more aces in premium rides with tracking missiles on the servers. The tracking missiles I can handle, when I can be allowed to deal with them. The bombers I could handle, IF I could be allowed to deal with them. Trying to break through a cloud of aces with tracking missiles to just to get to a bomber who will flee into the carrier before Ive even really started hitting him... It's like trying to pick out one ace in a heavy with 2-4 other aces gunning just for you with no teammates at your back. An insanely good ace might get lucky & pull it off once, but it can't be done in a meaningful way; even pilots much better than me can spend a whole ten minutes without getting to that bomber once, & in the process you've just broken yourself on that wall over and over again accomplishing nothing but the amusement of the trolls frustrating you.

If tracking missiles are frustrating you, you need to try them a few times, & learn their weaknesses (thats a topic for another thread). Yeah, in huge furballs there's missiles everywhere, and NO ONE has a long life expectancy. In the lopsided matches that are only becoming more common, I would love to see a skill rating system that locks out heavy fighters & premium rides for any side leading by say... the totale number of pilots on the roster. Never gonna happen.
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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by Nostromo on Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:00 pm

My skills, or lack there of, in regards to dealing with missiles has nothing to do with my ire of the prolific use of such things without reasonable defensive options. I become incredibly empathic to the thirty-five mamba pilots, single stripe, that are shot down by someone in his FH-250 or in A-80's.
BTW Cyber Hugs for Kackles..... you made for a venting target even if I didn't press the send button.

The most common sight from my experiences has been usually that one pilot in his new 10T or 10X rushing flag captures. I've never seen anyone other than a tri-stripe using a bomber for cheap kills, aces tend to just get the job done as fast as they can. So I am not sure where the, "do something about it," come up in regards to bombers against defenders, typically that's a lose proposition for the bomber. Maybe I'm not reading the earlier comments clearly ...

In any game you run the risk of unbalance, the lobby seems to want to track stripes and levels rather than in-game score per-match. And even worse the in-game match making only makes things worse by ignoring the idea of ranking balance in exchange for just running a population tracker. Currently not sure what I'm try to say here, but, somehow I thought it was important to mention it. I suppose it's trying to address that ace thing Kackles is referring to ... somehow ...

I can be smart I'm sure of it! Laughing
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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by Kackling Kobold on Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:51 pm

Nostromo_Crew wrote:
BTW Cyber Hugs for Kackles..... you made for a venting target even if I didn't press the send button.

Uh... glad i could be of service?

I think my rage against nuke spamming somewhat confused me spilling S&D complaints into this thread. Apologies.

I do *try* to use missiles responsibly, against aces or in self defense, but I totally understand what you mean about them being an issue with new pilots.

There is no honor in Mamba mulching.

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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by MJ on Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:43 pm

Using a bomber for anything other then CA, is like wearing your favorite WWF T-shirt to church. It's just tacky.
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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by Nostromo on Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:48 pm

I suppose it would be tacky if it wasn't for two-thirds of your church crowd wearing RAW shirts at the same time....

Even I get tired of trying for objectives if I constantly have to stare down three A-80s and their pet X99 every time I wanted for smoke a flag.
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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by MJ on Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:05 pm

Saddly you know my church crowd so well...

The point of the game is to have fun, sometimes your fun pisses someone off. The only time I really get mad is if some troll on my team picks up the flag and flys off to to the horizon with it.
Any play style can be countered with the right combination of team work and strategy. Use the style that you have the most fun with. Just remember, whatever style you use, someone is going to bitch about it on a forum somewhere.
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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by Nostromo on Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:00 am

True, coordination amongst team members means the greatest difference in any game. Until you play with a fully stacked match where there is no consideration towards the untrained players we are trying to keep around to save this game. Just hours ago I walked away from a match where I in a G5 with 37 kills couldn't save my team members who lost mamba after mamba to carrier camping A80s and V66s.

Fighting a match where my G5 was the most advanced ship on my team was a disappointing reminder that there is still very little consideration given to the people we need to play this game.

BTW, sorry about your church... hopefully things will work out, I didn't mean for that retort to hit so low. Rolling Eyes
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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by Nostromo on Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:07 am

As it stands I spend two or three games every other night explaining how certain elements function in Moonbreakers to players that...
Have trouble with english (granted I'm partially to blame for my butchered 'Mericanizations)...
Just started...
Have more money than sense ( have had so many arguments with Lux-babies about why my mamba ain't broken)...
Or, and for the love of some deity, have obviously never touched a keyboard in their entire life.

I love this game, but as it stands, I'm spending almost as much time training new players ( who i never see again most times) as I do enjoying what I've earned.
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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by Kackling Kobold on Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:42 am

well, after getting rushed by bombers in CTF I have finally been convinced to unlock a bomber myself.

After that display, it's pretty clear CTF is headed for "bomber only" play.

If you can't beat em...
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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by Delta38 on Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:39 am

Hi everyone,
I can totally agree with you. Sometimes Bombers do spoil all the fun, and they indeed shouldn't be the weapon of choice through a mode like CTF where it should be about speed, precise flying and teamwork, it becomes about nukespamming annoyingly hard to stop wedge shaped craft :-)
Also, nukespamming, how annoying! It's not a particularly fair tactic. I too end up leaving targets in order to blow up the bombers out of sheer hate!

Though, as possible fix... It should be possible, A bomber too will have difficulty surviving a nuke, turn it on them as they take the flag or make for the roids. If they're not too smart they may end up killed in the blast (Takes some thinking ahead, being in a bomber, and very lucky I guess though). Also, I sometimes find it's easier to work out what sort of route the flag carrier is planning, exiting the roid and cutting his path further ahead when he thinks himself safe and slows to recharge boost... Not bombers, but I've stopped quite a few flag carriers on rockfield with the "Wait for you at the gate" approach.
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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by Nostromo on Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:42 am

"Facehoof"


Has anyone ever thought that, maybe, if you hate the function so much that it might be working perfectly? I am not going to bother with examples, but, I'm sure that there are military weapons that were developed for the sheer desire of being hated by the bad guys.

My only complaint is that a weapon of such magnitude should also be prone to friendly fire. This however would lead to trolls to exploit the nukes for evil, and a way for Evil Aces to try and steal points. I think maybe the Devs are trying to keep trolling to a minimum.

The long arming timer, long reload speed, and the OBVIOUS yellow tag that appears on the weapon go a long way to making it one of the most ludicrous weapons on the field. I applaud anyone who can functionally run a Nuke spamming bomber and still kill me. It either takes GREAT skill or, as suggested earlier, a stupid amount of luck to murder multiple people with a giant light bulb that flys straight from your ship.
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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by DrunkenMonkey on Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:15 am

Or other people that are actually fighting, to keep you busy.

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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by Delta38 on Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:49 am

You are correct, it does work, and it does take skill.
But given that nukes too can be remote detonated, it is quite easy for a bomber flag carrier to through a nuke slightly off course while running, looking back and detonating chasing rookies. And as much as they are advertised on the HUD, they often can't be reached in time to be shot down (And often if the bomber pilot keeps an eye on it... they will be detonated just as you close in to kill it).

It just feels frustrating because, as mentioned in previous posts... Unless you've got a proper ace pounding into it, a bomber flag carrier while get home unscathed. (Plus I really don't get why health isn't displayed on flag carriers... )

And regarding the nuke spam... if you play broken moon, quite often bomber pilots, 2 or more, will fire nukes at the face of the moon, still quite effectively killing fighters on the inside which have no chance to shoot it down. Sure, you can run, exit the moon on a side and try and take them and the blockade runners head on. But it does make them rack up kills in well... Less than an elegant manner.

I just think it is abused and there's no straight forward counter.

I mean, if a flag carrier is in a:
heavy. Chase and circle in a light. Down in no time.
Medium. Tough nut, has the power and the speed, either light or other medium will still hunt it down eventually.
Light, dangerous, can run very far very fast, but will go down if hit with a snowball...
Bomber, well, seems easy, but the rock hugging nuke shooting armor on wheels can be hard to kill in anything (For me).

Plus you need to take care of the escort, and training guns for long periods on slow targets while people are training them on you :-) is tricky.




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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by Nostromo on Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:28 pm

Adding variables to the mix just up's the difficulty of the matter. True, that it is always the new guys that end up taking the brunt of most of these problems. But, when don't they in most matters? Though, never have I ran a game where I didn't exclusively chase bombers, so this might be coloring my views a little in sympathy for them.

Escorts make things sticky, the lens Flare makes things worse, the armor and speed leaves little room for error, and on top of the whole pile of hate you have a flying box that commands one of the most impressive AoE's in this game Shocked . Excuse me if I drool a little over the implications of such a chubby challenge tongue . But, shouldn't more people view this as a chance to run a real gauntlet that could prove their skills? I'm not saying that anyone is poor at this game, just that you need to try seeing this in a different light instead of just something to slide over into the Con's list about this game. Suspect
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Re: CTF and Bombers

Post by the-anger on Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:53 pm

for one, dont run this game on anything above medium lol... the gfx looks nice n all but it isnt done via shaders, so it lags your game noticeably on some machines (as well as being distracting with the lens flare, which also direction-blurs flag markers from the right angle)
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Re: CTF and Bombers

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